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Discussion in 'UHall' started by Violence, Sep 3, 2008.

  1. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    May 27, 2008
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    In every single RPG, be it Off/Online or Fantasy/Medieval/Sci-Fi, Tabletop/Paper RPG or on a computer I always pick the most melee oriented, closer to dual wield type of class with poisons or bleeding, that I can find. If you need an example, in Diablo 2 I prefered Barbarian or Assassin and in Titan Quest I was mostly Warfare/[Whatever] combo, however I ALWAYS TRY ALL CLASSES in most games to be able to speak about balance among them. Enough with that, I'm trying to say I'd like some of it in our game.

    Without further ado here's what I think Dual Wield should be like in UO;

    It is a separate skill.

    Mana costs are on par with Bushido, so pretty low and typical with 40% LMC. Stamina is the key here.

    It is a skill for those that favour aggressiveness and crave bloodshed in the battlefield.

    It will greatly increase the value of skills such as Focus and Meditation and properties on items such as Stamina Leech, Dexterity/Stamina Increase and Stamina Regeneration on Warriors.

    All the mentioned abilities, passive or not, REQUIRE you to actually wield 2 weapons. If you disarm one of your weapons to drink a potion or if you are Disarmed, any abilities related to Dual Wield are turned OFF(if they are toggles) or simply fade(if they are castable) and as that happens they drain the necessary amount of mana. If you do not have the necessary amount, your mana is set to 0 anyway. This is to hinder spamming Total Refreshes.

    The special feature of this skill is that most of its abilities are Toggles and work in conjunction with other abilities(even if they are from another skill like Bushido or Chivalry) as long as they remain active. While an ability remains active it drains your Stamina over time and the more abilities you have toggled on at the same time including Stances, the faster your Stamina deteriorates. Note that this is on top of a relatively small, set amount of mana these abilities require to turn them off and on.

    All of your off-hand weapon's properties are penalised by -25%.

    Weapon skill level along with Tactics and Anatomy potentially, increases your chance to use your off-hand weapon or an ability related to that.

    You may Parry with your off-hand weapon. However if your Dexterity is lower than 120 there will be a penalty to your Parry chance. The formula will be the same Parry uses for its Dexterity requirements and penalty.

    In addition having either Bushido or Ninjitsu along with Parry while having two 1-Handed weapons equipped yields better results than having only Parry, but worse results than having Bushido and Parry while using a 2-Handed weapon.
    IMPORTANT : Having both Bushido and Ninjitsu will not offer any advantage in these calculations in terms of Parry chance with your off-hand weapon as both arts teach identical principles on this passive ability.

    Dual Wield Book : "Berserker's Oaths" spellbook.

    Abilities :

    - Recklesness (CAST)
    A single attack that utilizes both weapons on the same time. The higher the skill level, the higher the chance to use this succesfully.

    - Precision (CAST)
    The penalty on your off-hand weapon is reduced to 0% at 120 Dual Wield for the duration of this ability. If you are struck while under this effect you immediately lose concentration and cannot re-use this for a few seconds.

    - Calculated Strikes (TOGGLE)
    If you land 2 consecutive blows you gain an extra swing instantly for a total of 3, much like Bushido's Counter Attack. The chance for this blow to land depends on your Dual Wield skill and is affected by other abilities active at the time.

    - Improvisation (TOGGLE)
    You can use all 4 special moves available from your two weapons while this is active. EXAMPE : This means you could deliver a Mortal Wound with a Cleaver if on your other hand you hold a Bone Harvester, and you could deliver an Infectious Strike with your Viking Sword if you also have a Kryss equipped.

    - Frenzy (TOGGLE)
    Regardless of weapon speed your hits connect within a 2 second margin for as long as this is active. Duration based on Dual Wield level. EXAMPLE : If you wield two weapons that are slow, there will be no more than a 2 seconds delay between each swing. Being knocked out of Frenzy though will considerably drain your stamina so heavy-hitters, use with caution.

    - Crippling Strikes (TOGGLE)
    Targetting vital areas on your opponent you damage their Stamina along with their Health while this active. If the opponent reaches 0 Stamina the next Crippling Strike will severely limit their movement capabilities for 2-8 seconds as they won't be able to move at running speed whether on foot or on horseback. Duration and Stamina Damage depends on Dual Wield.

    STANCES : Only ONE Stance can be active. They have a cool-down timer and you cannot instantly jump from one Stance to another.

    Defensive (TOGGLE)
    You can set your combat stance to favour defense over offense. You will use your off-hand weapon a lot less but your chance to block a blow will increase dramatically.

    Offensive (TOGGLE)
    The opposite of Defensive Stance.

    Neutral (TOGGLE)
    Normal state.

    Berserk (TOGGLE)
    You forego your ability to defend yourself with your off-hand weapon and favour aggression. Each strike regardless whether it's an ability or special move, as long as it's melee based and not ranged, has a chance to do double the damage.

    Warriors' Oaths (CAST)
    While this is active you speak your Warriors' Oaths. You enter a meditative state in which your Health, Mana and Stamina are regenerated rapidly so that you may continue to battle as soon as you can but you cannot move, attack or perform any other action while this lasts. If you are knocked out of this state your Health, Mana and Stamina regeneration receives a large penalty thus practically going negative for some time. In addition it has a cool-down timer that kicks in if you are knocked out of it.
    Duration and regeneration dependant on Dual Wield level.
  2. kinney42

    kinney42 Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    May 13, 2008
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    Where in the hell do you think we will have room for another 120 skill points? In your ability descriptions you mention bushido or ninjitsu, then anat and tactics and parry, also you mention med and focus.....add in weapon and chiv and healing.....where the hell can we fit another skill!!!
    Warriors don't need another skill if the skill cap isn't uped by 300!
  3. How would you handle Berzerk on a dual-wield Paladin using Enemy of One? Would it stack or not?

    Nice presentation and is making me rethink some of my (admittedly) naive thoughts on this. Being basically dirtnapping specialist, my battles are mostly PvM ... but there's a lot that is useful in here for that!

    I still have a sticking point on the separate skill thing ... due to all the reasons you could think of right now. But ... that's minor to getting/understanding d/w mechanics.
  4. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Moderator Professional Stratics Veteran Wiki Moderator Stratics Legend

    Oct 1, 2006
    Likes Received:
    I'm all for Dual Wield on the condition that it's a Defensive ability only. That's not to say a small chance for the off had weapon to strike couldn't be put into place.
  5. Dont we have duel wielding already?

    Double Strike.

    I think thats enough.
  6. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Dec 14, 1999
    Likes Received:
    duel wield and double strike are completely different. Double strike is one weapon with a chance to land a critical hit twice. Duel wield would be holding TWO WEAPONS.
  7. I have to just say NO to dual wielding.

    I really really dont care how well thought out it is. how balanced it is, what new things it will bring to uo.

    UO is barely even uo anymore. Lets try to abandon all this crap. last time (ok not the last time but a notable time) we tried to make uo more like every other god damn mmo (aos) it almost killed it. I'm not saying its on the same par as completely changing the entire orientation/goal of the game like skill to item base did but its NOT UO

    Every time EA make uo more like another game, we lose players, if i wanted to play diablo 2 id go get the damn cds, if i wanted to play EQ id go find a copy of it somewhere, if i wanted to play wow id shoot myself....

    If by some miracle. some EAbod that actually gives a crap about uo and not just adding some new get old fast gimmic to the game happens to read this. EA have another game, its awesome i highly recommend if you wanna dual wield and seige warfare and grind and farm, that you go play DAOC its ace! its a really really really good mmo, its 3d its pretty with the new(ish) engine and its even run by the same company.
    But for the omfgloveofgod PLEASE dont make uo more like wow or lineage or eq or wow (yeah it goes double for wow) or conan or warhammer or any other god damn mmo. SERIOUSLY i know you want to keep your player base by adding content that the more popular games have, but jesus christ your gonna lose, UO is not pretty it will not attract or keep the kind of ADD junkies that wow has, the players uo has are largly players that still love uo at its core, the game it was when we started.

    Im all for adding new items (frankly ive come to terms with aos i dont like item based but uits here now)
    Im even for fixing bugs (hahaha yeah)
    Im ok with balancing updates.
    Hell im even learning to deal with this whole "endgame" crap youve managed to create.

    But puhleaze, PLEASE PLEASE just stop looking at any other game, i dont care what they have, if i wanted it, i already know they have it and i know it actually "fits" in their game.

    Diablo 3 comes out soon. the more you make uo like diablo 3 the more im gonna crap my pants when d3 comes out and i can play the real version instead of the horrible imagined version youre turning uo into.

    sorry to the op this is all TOTALLY off topic, sort of. But i just see where this is going and frankly i will be forced to quit uo when its no longer uo and looking at the game now.. its not far off.

    SAVATAGE Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    May 28, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I read this... While i agree dual wielding would be nice.. all i saw in ths thread was........... MAKE ME PLAY LIKE I DO IN WOW... Sorry... just my opinion.....
  9. The idea behind the dual wield has nothing to do with cramming your template. The theory is either being pure warrior based and gain damage benefits over tanks or be a tank and have the ability to cast spells over other pure warrior templates.

    honestly the reason why I think UO pvp fails so bad is because of the ability to tank so versatily. Yes its fun to master new over powered templates but its just not the right way to approach pvp.

    IMO there should be a slight classful state in UO. Where a warrior can only train warrior skills and (1) warrior based spell class (chivalry/bush/ninjitsu) etc.

    Same applies to mages etc.

    Then to further improve the versatility of the game, just add about 4-5 new warrior based skills and a few mage based skills to leave us with options.
  10. Im not trying to be difficult.
    But arent you just swinging two weapons with ability to hit both consecutively?

    Double strike. 2 hits.

    Ive read the idea. I dont see why all the energy should be spent on creating a class (sort of) to hold 2 weapons. You are 1 weapon in this game anyway. All there is a time delay. Weapons mean little in this game. There is no benefit to using a dagger or a long spear. Specials. Sure. But people just go for speed and damage. Or actually speed, damage, special.

    The game lacks competive diversity. They over complicate their systems for battle and candy down characture development and consequences. Diversity is more the a billion class titles. Who needs them. Create diversity from the crafters ends. Let us build a class. Give meaning to items.

    What does dual wielding add?

    I think work needs to be done on creating a better dynamic for weapons. A player swinging a long sword into katana should have a benefit. A butcher knive vs a Hally should be a no brainer.


    We have what we have.
  11. Hemisphere

    Hemisphere Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Sep 21, 2002
    Likes Received:
    That's a fantastic idea, in theory, and if it were implimented in an ideal world of balance in all things then it would make UO's PvP far more rich and interesting. It would be good in PvM also, with the same theory applied - a Balron should laugh in the face of a skinning knife, and a wisp would be almost impossible to melee with anything.
  12. Actually,

    You have just implemented it, in a doable form.
    I think you do it in progression. None of this revamp the world and implement.

    Start with monsters.
    Start with specific monsters.
    Start with Balrons or Dragons.

    Your right. Walk up to one of them with a dagger and your dead. Why? You need a range attack. Or shield and smaller weapon.

    Step to dragon to close and your eaten. Step to balron to close and it bear hugs you and your dead.

    Even take it further.

    Your blade (dagger) barely penetrates the Balron skin. 1/2 damage.

    You could move to armours.
    What is a dagger going to do against plate.
    You need a bashing weapon. Or a heavy sword.

    So much to do. So many great ideas. So much time. And yet little gets added to game.
  13. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    They had a similar system once (to Raven's better dynamic, not the dual wielding, which is a good idea IMO). Pre AOS nobody would dream of fighting a warrior in plate mail while wielding a dagger, as the dagger would do very little damage while the hally-wielding-plate-wearing juggernaut would do massive damage with each swing of his weapon. It was a time when I really didn't like being a fencer... I would annihilate mages and the best I ever did against a swordsman was stalemate (and ran from macers, but that's because of the destroying armor thing).

    Back to dual wielding.

    If the dual wielding hit speeds don't exceed the current max swing speed, i.e. you hit with your main hand diamond mace, then 1.25 sec later you hit with your off hand cleaver, then I could get behind the idea. Otherwise you would risk instant-kills. Apart from not mentioning that, I like all the ideas in the OP.
  14. oh gad ... I remember those days. I was training up a tank-mage on Pac and a fellow allowed me to spar him in his house. He needed to get rid of a lot of plate he'd collected and that was the ticket.

    He & his partner kept me healed up while I bashed the dickens out of the armor. wiped 3 full sets of plate that way! Then we took off and went up on Yew Peninsula where we could do swarms of dires, reapers and PKs. I learned to dirtnap at that point.
  15. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Dual Wield shouldn't be a skill, it is holding swords with two hands, which I think we should be able to do, there should also be new equipment, like one-handed axes.... Would be awesome.. A war axe is kind of like a one handed axe, but why the hell is it macing!??!
  16. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Back before SSI, there WAS balance in the weapons. A kryss was fast (and could be poisoned) but it did very light damage. A halbred was slow, but did massive damage.

    Back then, dexer referred to fencers specifically; most swords/mele type used a katana (not as fast as a kryss, but still quick, and a better damage range) or a broadsword (because that is what most magical swords were), tho you did have your LJers and Hally wielders. Macers did not have a particularly quick weapon. All maces were slow and hard hitting.

    SSI took this balance away.
  17. The reasoning for it being skill based are

    -It works in compliance with your current melee skill
    -It allows you to manipulate 2 different weapons of different mods/powers/specs
    -Your abilities as a warrior are doubled leaving you more combat options

    So basically you're trading off another skill for dual wielding to use 2 melee weapons of your melee skill choice (swords/fencing/macing etc)

    Just a thought though. Why shouldn't it be its own skill? adding highend abilities such as this without a counter consequence just keeps further imbalancing the game and pvp.
  18. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    How would they make it so you can weild two weapons if you don't have the skill to learn the skill?

    I know this, read my thread on magery..
  19. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    Brings up ALOT of balancing issues

    dmg output , stacking of weapon roperties and so forth ....

    if they can dish out alot of dmg there need to be a severe drawback , like no use of mounts or negative 45 dci natural or something ... I've played savages and berserkers in DAOC and they are basicly walking meat grinders...

    I would make one the sec they got released just to be over powered for as long as it would last.....
  20. Fairly simple concept.

    Dual Wield means the ability to wield 2 (single hand weapons) at once right?

    Working in compliance with your current melee skill, it would raise with it just like anatomy and tactics.

    Having 0 dual wield [skill] would allow you to equip a second weapon, but make it completely useless meaning it would never land a strike. Once you raise it to a fair amount of skill, 70 for example, you can swing the second weapon effectively and use the first spec (requires 70 minimum actual melee skill, and tactics)

    So you see? it works in compliance with your actual melee skill. Without your actual melee skill, it would be a completely useless waste of time because you wouldn't be able to use the skill.

    Not to mention it works just like a melee skill at the same time. It constantly cross checks your actual melee skills and its self to see if you're able to perform specs with your second weapon.

    If you want a laymans term example...

    Lumberjacking is to axe wielding meleers as dual wielding is to single handed meleers

    (except in that example, dual wield isn't a damage modifier)
  21. thats basically the reasoning for making it its own skill. allowing people to use an ability like this w/o the requirement of another 100-120 skill point value would make dexxers decimate the playing field.

    Drawbacks could include only 30% chance of second hand weapons mods working properly, but specs would work 100% efficiently.
  22. Beefybone

    Beefybone Visitor

    May 26, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Why isn't dual-wield just another choice like 1-hander, 1-hander plus shield, or 2-hander? Why does dual-wield need to BE so OMG AWESOME that it requires another 100 skill points to balance? Just let players equip two weapons and alternate swings between them.
  23. Why?

    What if you see someone doing back to back AIs with DP using a dagger/kryss combo? or w/e else someone can come up with.

    Not to mention what if both weapons had highend mods?

    Can you imagine what 50% hml or even 35-40% hit fireball/lightning would do to someone on the field?

    That is why I believe if it was implemented into the game, it should be a skill. You get all the benefits of one weapon, and another weapon. Not to mention they would or should be sequential swings (not at the same time). Thats just too much advantange to not be its own skill, which is, my opinion.

    BUTTT in the mean time I feel like I've Hi-jacked S!icklovers thread. This is all in all my theory of how I'd like dual wielding to work. Im open to having it implemented freely but it would have to have major set backs.
  24. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    May 27, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Having Jeremy stating they do not plan to add any new skills until after SA killed all the fun for me.

    All the following are in reply to the person that said warriors don't need more cramping. With Dual Wield they would. But it would also make them completely viable with very little effort in today's UO. Even if you leave out Bushido etc.

    Note, in my eyes even pure warriors can Dual Wield, it's only natural, and I don't consider this template as ******* as what you get now instead of "warriors" in UO, at all!

    See below!

    In my mind a person that would use Dual Wield on their template is ready to forego Resist and potentially Parrying, even Bushido/Ninja unless you are interested in the Abilities, passive or active, where Parrying and/or Bushido/Ninja will be taken into account... along with drinking potions and such.

    I know I would do it, probably going full offense; Tactics/Anatomy/Dual Wield/Weapon/Poison/Focus!!

    With a little tinkering if you already have the items you could build a high-end suit that would sustain Stamina and Mana consumption. Linking 3-4 special moves will drain you very fast but it will be worth it.

    This skillset would do what it says(for once). Kill as much as you can before you drop dead. Because you're really a berzerker. Mind, with a dedicated healer, a full-offensive Berserker would be a very strong asset in group combat unless it comes against a completely defensive/healing oriented template.

    To conclude Dual Wield templates also have enough room to be defensive if you want to go completely solo.
    Tactics/Anat/Dual/Weapon/Parry/Bushido(or Ninja depending).

    I mean, there are many variations. Even Necro/SS! Imagine Life Leeching with Dual Wield Template on Vampire Form, with a Blade of Insanity and a Breath Of The Dead, Curse Weapon + Strangle + Pain Strike on target casted to seriously damage their Stamina and use that special move that renders them unable to move. Sure they could use a Refresh but it would seriously send them nuts. Anyway I'm just speculating.

    *EDIT* : To someone who said "Make me play like I do in WoW" ;
    I do not play WoW. I am influenced by ALL of the games I CLEARLY mention, not a single one. And I tried my honest best to adjust it to Ultima Online.
    If I wanted to play WoW I'd be playing it, I already have full account sitting there, inactive.
    Plus lately UO feels just like WoW anyway and I'm not trying to start an Insurance/Item Breakage convo either. It's just it feels WoWish IN ALL ASPECTS ever since ML. I can not even say if that's ultimately bad or good. I just wish it was more UOish.. ;Pp Dual Wield won't significantly cap-size the balance, because simply ALL sensible RPG games have it and Dual Wield has its fair share of fans so to speak.