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The Void and the World of Daemons: Virtuebane

Discussion in 'UHall' started by WarderDragon, Apr 20, 2011.

  1. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni BRPA

    Oct 9, 2008
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    The Void and the World of Daemons: Virtuebane

    We've not seen the last of the Daemon Prince.

    See The Latest Edition of the BNN.

    Mm. Virtuebane planned to duplicate his world in place of ours? Therein lies a problem.

    If we understand Virtuebane to be a Daemon - a creature born of the Void - then we must infer the above is a contradiction of established Daemon Lore.

    That is of course unless there is another explanation.

    But let us first begin with a description of Daemons.

    The Daemons and Devils of Ultima Fiction hail from a netherous domain known as the Ethereal Void. (Compare to the Immaterium of Warhammer and the Astral Plane of Neo-Platonic and Rosicrucion Philosophical / Esoteric Schools.) This is the same Infernal Limbo from whence Sorcerers and Necromancers derive their Knowledge and Power.

    Daemons themselves are not sentient beings. The Infernal Ones do not sustain themselves on flesh or grain but instead upon the Sins and Subconcious Fears of Mankind. (It can be infered that the Daemon Prince was made strong through the Pride of the Magincians. His aspect. If the Sin of the Magincians had been Lust or Deceit then we would have seen a rather different demon emerge.) Daemons cannot be killed on the Material Plane.

    If Virtuebane is a Daemon - or a Devil - he would not possess a homeworld. It is not in their nature. And we know from numerous fictional sources that the Ethereal Void is not encapsulated within the Shards but is instead a bridge that connects them. (See the Departure of Lord British and UO2 Lore.) This leaves us one of two options. Virtuebane is either an Extraterrestrial Being whom the Medieval Britannians perceive to be a Daemon - due to their limited understanding of the Cosmos - or Virtuebane is a Daemon that has managed to conquer another World or Shard.

    Tell me. Who from Ultima Lore went about conquering Worlds but was thwarted when he set his sights upon Britannia? Who in Ultima Lore engineered a Cult to summon him into Our World? Who in Ultima Lore - (Pre-Ultima IX) - was associated with the Shadowlords? Who in Ultima Lore sought to become the God of this World?

    The Guardian.

    So either the previous article is rife with misinterpretations of Ultima Lore - which is possible - or Virtuebane is our Parallel Universes version of the Guardian. Perhaps one falling into the same class of World Conqueroring Daemons that the Guardian is said to have belonged to prior to the Great IX Retcon.
  2. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
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    I reply to you with the same reply I had on the White Stag forum, copied/pasted.

    Virtuebane in UO was presented as a kind of demon lord or higher-up. He wouldn't necessarily be subject to the rules of normal demons, even if our knowledge of those rules was complete and really how could it be?

    In an OOC sense, demon lore (or any lore) from Ultima is source material for UO, not a guide that has to be followed. Remember that on old Ultima, Virtuebane's status was ambiguous; he could have been anything from a lord down to a middle manager/supervisor. Some have said they remember him as just a normal demon, I remember him at least claiming to have more power than that.

    In an IC sense, demon lore (or any lore) from Ultima is one possibility, not a certainty.

    As I recall there've been implications in UO that demons come from someplace physical; I remember a post by Draconi talking about how disconcerting it was for demons to be summoned by mages, from their world into our own.

    And finally, in the post you linked to you linked to an article on Ultima demons from the website called "The Codex of Editable Wisdom," that article is here

    Daemons - The Codex of Ultima Wisdom, a wiki for Ultima and Ultima Online

    and based on it I don't see it being a contradiction for the demons to have a world of their own, at least some of them. I never thought the demons destroying Magincia in Ultima meant they were somehow created from Anti-Virtue, even in old Ultima (and most certainly in UO) I thought of them as physical creatures at least in some sense, as well as supernatural.

    -Galen's player
  3. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    WarderDragon, your inspirations are excellent. However, I wonder about your insight. I think perhaps we need to prove these things before we accept them as fact. And that is always the hard part, is it not?

    First of all, your comment that Daemons cannot be killed on this material plane. If that's true, and I think we have to agree that it likely is, what does that say about us? For neither can we. Although clearly, some Britannians can be killed, as we sadly witnessed just recently with our Queen Dawn. Perhaps there is a reason, the same as for the Daemons, in that many of us actually come from another place. Whether we know that or not. But I'll leave it at that, as spiritual conflicts tend to lead us to heated debates where things are said best left unsaid.

    Primarily, I wish to take issue with your comment that Daemons live within the Void. While it's been said many times that Daemons had come "from the Void", does that mean they reside within? Do human raiders who "came from the sea" reside in or on the sea? As you can see, the meaning of such comments need not be taken so literally.
    If we could prove where exactly Daemons reside, the Void or another plane of existence, we shall be in a better position to discover the means to defend ourselves against their onslaught I think. Knowledge almost always offers power.

    But to your point, is Virtuebane a Daemon...that's a very good question. The answer to this doesn't necessarily answer the other. We have much to learn, to be better able to defend this realm.
  4. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Jan 6, 2010
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    lol middle manager deamon :danceb:
  5. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    "Would you like some fries with that fork?"
  6. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Wiki Moderator Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Jul 16, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Consider also that what might be considered a demon lord is someone that looked into the void, liked what they saw, and not only embraced it but let it transform them.

    Think of the difference between the much more common crime of murder (more often in the heat of passion, and regretted after the fact), and what it takes to become a successful serial killer or hired killer.

    In this way, even if standard daemonkind manifest from the emotions of those in the physical realm, demon lords would be born into the physical realm, and be under many of the same rules as mortals - as well as those of the immortals.

    After all, has not anyone considered that the 3 superior demons, the Balrons, appear in many ways like the Shadowlords did - capable of being more than one of the same name in the same or different places at the same time? And, this kind of multi-presence might have been the goal for Virtuebane.
  7. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    I just wanted to note this. As we ponder the mysteries of UO, lets keep in mind that the names are often very curious for their meaning.

    What exactly is the nature of "duplicity" in the Crystal of Duplicity?

    I'm not sure of others have wondered about things like this.
  8. Landicine

    Landicine Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 23, 2008
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  9. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Landicine, I'm not sure that there's any conflict in the stories. First, are you thinking that in one there's a shard of the Gem of Immortality, while later it becomes the Crystal of Duplicity? Perhaps they are one and the same.

    And speaking of the duplicitous nature of the Crystal of Duplicity, let me point this out...

    "It has been done. Months of preparation and study have finally come together in one last surge of hope for you, the people. Though the … expectations of the spell were not quite as planned, where you now stand is our New World. A better world, free from the fears wrought by the temptress, Minax."

    From your last link BNN: Casting the Spell - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia
  10. Landicine

    Landicine Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 23, 2008
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    It isn't really a conflict, more of details that don't mesh perfectly or were added later.

    Nystul's spell included several stone structures that you can still find in Felucca near most of the banks, but none of the BNN stories from that time seem to mention a crystal, shard, or the Gem of Immortality:

    BNN: Construction of the Stones - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

    It does mention a mysterious book that was never seen again or explained. I may have missed the reference though. A lot of details get missed in 11 years since the birth of Trammel.

    The other minor issue is the origin of Minax's device was an Exodus creature. There were various in-game events to support this BNN article. There was no connection to Nystul's spell except that Minax was using the device to bypass it. Also, the device was powered by shards of the gem, all of which Lord British supposedly took with him into the Void. Apparently, he left at least one behind.

    None of these issues are that terrible. I was pointing these out for completeness, not to criticize. Being a comic book and fantasy novel fan, there are certainly worst retcons and breaks with past events. Considering how many devs, seers, EMs, and players have added bits of story to this game over 13 years, I think it is impressive that there aren't larger problems.
  11. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    BNN: Casting the Spell - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia
    "I will not lie to you when I say I was unsure as to the effects of the spell within the tome as well as the stone devices for which it called.(1) Many of the passages offered obscure references to sealing off threats, evil, and other such stuff.(2)

    (1)- Perhaps we need to search for what Minax might have used in this reference. Exodus's dungeon has some strange constructions that spring instantly to mind. Which would be proof that Minax and Exodus work together, I would think.

    (2)- Duplicitous indeed, if you consider some powerful force using Nystul, Lord British, and others via subterfuge to build what this force needs to accomplish it's goals. Leading us all on, "pulling the strings" (which sounds so familiar behind all our events).

    And as far as the entire storyline being consistent from the start, I can't prove that of course. But I will point out something here.
    We have heard voices in our heads (those who were inflicted by the Blackrock). One of the things said was simply "soon".
    Now let me point to this...

    End of the world-Beta
    "Inside, it was dark; no window let sunlight into the chamber. Candles shone steady, unshaken by drafts. And on the bed, Nystul lay, gaunt and gray, his once-full beard matted and unkempt, his eyes still open, staring into nothingness.

    Chuckles moved to his side, ghosting over the flagstones. In the darkness, only his fevered eyes could be seen. Nystul's breathing rasped the air, barely audible.

    Like a small child, the jester lay his head across the withered old mage. He closed his febrile eyes and smiled, clutching the sheets between his hands.

    "Soon," he whispered. "Soon, master, soon."

    An unearthly laugh filled the air, and one of Nystul's hands moved to rest on the jester's head. And there they remained for a while, Chuckles soon sleeping on the chest of the comatose wizard, the wizard himself breathing in, breathing out."