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NEWS [UO.Com] Combat Changes in Testing

Discussion in 'UHall' started by UO News, Dec 15, 2016.

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  1. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    Also Chivalry is a skill meant to be used by the warrior. Warrior related skills shouldn't limit it. That's why skills such as Bushido and Ninjitsu never imposed a penalty on Chivalry in the first place.

    Wrestling is a skill used by mages, so of course it should be on the restriction list.
     
    #551 cobb, Dec 25, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  2. sensu

    sensu Adventurer

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    I agree, which is why I named magic skills



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3. randy

    randy Journeyman

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    If Chiv is getting nerfed it needs to be overal not oh you can use evade and a weapon but not wrestling give me a break. Either they cap it at 2/6 or they don't your being insanely bias.
     
  4. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    ............................Sensu, you realize that you're describing what Mike D has pretty much done for the past year right?

    Lol just add smoke bombs.
     
  5. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    I think we're at a point now where everyone thinks we should just nerf whatever template it is they don't like... and tbh, if we're going to nerf archers and focus parry mages as hard as we are, we might as well nerf everyone while we're at it. **** whether or not the game is fun anymore.

    I think the problem is, that everyone is trying to get the templates they don't like nerfed, even if that particular thing makes the template more fun for someone else; but in the end, if we nerf everything, then everyone is going to be left worse off, because the game is going to be ridiculously defensive, and everything is going to be less fun to play. However lame some aspects of other templates may be, the only way to make that template less fun for someone else, while also keeping the game balanced, is to play a template that is less fun for you. We all need to accept that we need to deal with the difficult aspects of other templates for our templates to remain fun (not me of course, I play anything).
     
    #555 Revan123, Dec 26, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
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  6. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    To play? Or to play effectively? Anyone can make any template and play it, but every template takes skill to play to a large extent or another. There are tons of people who suck ass on an Archer and are ineffective. You might think you know better because you've "played your share of FotM" templates, but until you've actually played an Archer, you won't understand where I'm coming from. I used to think the same thing about Archers until I played one myself. Can anyone make one? Yes. But anyone can make a parry mage and spam curse, explosion, flame strike over and over? Yeah, they can do that too. But to play an archer effectively takes skill, just like any other template.

    The wrestle parry 4/6 chiv char might be hard as **** to kill, but I've done it on many occassions. It's not over-powered because it's a useless template tbh. Anyone who plays one is either A. playing it because it's easy. B. playing it because they like the style (even though it's stupid as fk imo) or C. playing it because they think it's effective, but they are really just too noobie to understand why it's not. But either way, it's pretty useless comparatively speaking.
     
    #556 Revan123, Dec 26, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  7. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    A holly fist spammer is useful in open field fights when paired with other templates. Alone it's too one dimensional, however, paired with other templates it's effective and just plain stupid. 34 dmg every 1.5 seconds from holly fist is not remotely fun to play against. It takes no brains to play and ruins quality pvp.
     
  8. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    I said "relatively speaking," and compared to templates "relatively speaking," it isn't effective.
     
  9. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    Um, no. It can cross heal and deal almost instant nearly unavoidable damage faster that most templates in the field. "Relatively speaking" it's EXTREMELY effective.
     
  10. Kiss Of Death

    Kiss Of Death Crazed Zealot
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    I am sure the new changes will make it really fun to pvp!

    I would remove tactics as requirement for specials.

    Maybe in the future it could be interesting to be able to disarm shields... with a lower chance to succeed in the disarm attempt but still very interesting in a field fight situation.
     
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  11. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    No... it's not.... let's compare it to a bushido holy fister, shall we? Can it nerve strike? Can it Armor ignore? Can it Riding Swipe? Can it use confidence? Can it use evasion? Can it use frenzied whirlwinds? Can it ride a lesser hiryu? Can it use essence of Wind? T-Storms? Pixies? Can it use an Orc brute? (that will actually hit targets).

    No, relatively speaking, it is not an effective template. All it has is one effective damage spell (none with delays) and heals that are only really good if the recipient is on foot.
     
  12. Dantes

    Dantes Sage
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    Don't most of the Wrestle/Parry Fisters also run Weaving? So pixies, t-storm, wildfire, essence of wind - all on the table. Wouldn't run bushido because that would make their shield less effective and evasion only works with weapon. Also meaning no lesser hiryu. Correct, they can't dismount - that's also another persons job, like an archer or someone who is carrying a No-Dachi. They can para-punch, which is similar to nerve strike in effect, just not in damage. And they can disarm.

    I don't have a fister, but I've thought about making one just because of the defensive and offensive, solo and team capabilities. Pair it with Ninjitsu, mirror images and animal form for when dismounted. It's a damn good and effective template. AI damage at .25 seconds slower, without a chance of miss or parry. Apples on demand. Arch Cure and a mini G-heal. And built in refresh pots. :gee: Stupid good/effective template.

    Before investing any further than I already have - eating a 120 Chiv and 120 Weaving scroll on my wrestle/parry mage :p I'll wait to see what this next publish brings.
     
  13. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    Didn't realize they play with spellweaving. I don't think I've EVER seen a wrestle parry fister summon pixies or essence/t-storm unless it was Mike D.

    No... it's not an "effective template"- compared to other templates. You just listed a bunch of things that a bushido fister also has, and completely ignored the fact that I said "relatively speaking." Also, you seem to be a bit delusional as to it's total effectiveness as well. You just named divine fury as a selling point. It's clear you've never played one either.
     
  14. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    You're trying to compare apples to oranges.

    I will always take a holly fister over and Bushido dex monkey as my partner in the field. It has guaranteed damage and cross heals.

    Can it use all weaving spells...yeah. My wrestle/parry/chiv guy has gm weaving, gm healing. It's extremely easy to jump on foot with tele scrolls and throw bolas. The template is stupid, high damage, and high survivability.

    Can it AI? Basically. Holly fist = 34dmg on the vast majority of targets.

    Can it use an orc tali? Yes, I actually do use one on my guy. You're right it doesn't hit as often since I'm not going full dex monkey, but since when does an orc brute define a templates effectiveness?
     
  15. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    It's amazing that people always seem to think that the template they aren't playing is the most effective one. It reminds me of the guy who had the signature with paper asking to nerf scissors, because scissors is way too powerful, but rock is just fine. Leave rock alone.
     
  16. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    How?... How am I "comparing apples to oranges"? What about them is uncomparable?

    ..... You realize I said a BUSHIDO FISTER right? You know those exist right?..

    Putting yourself on foot to bola is only smart if you outnumber your opponent. If you think that's nearly as effective as a no-dachi dismount, then you're missing something. Also, if you think holy fist alone makes for "high damage," then you must not understand how offense works. There's no doubt it's somewhat effective. But compared to the top templates of today, it's not.

    It's not nearly the same as an armor ignore. The first swing on armor ignore is instant if you've had enough stamina for the duration of it. Armor ignores have hit effects, like hit lightning. With an armor ignore your orc brute may also hit the target. Instead, all you have is a guaranteed 35 damage from range, that always hits instantly, that always requires a cast time that can be disrupted, and doesn't do more than 35 damage because it doesn't add hit spell damage or orc brute damage. Is it good to have? Of course. But does it make for "high damage"? No, not really. And btw, your idea to put an orc brute on a template that doesn't even use melee hits was very short-sighted. I could've told you that before you did it.
     
  17. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    Lulz.
     
  18. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran
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    You can laugh all you want, you clearly don't understand what's effective in PvP. You think offense is all about damage. Even if that were the case (which it's not), the template is only good for a moderate amount of sustained, reliable damage. It doesn't do 50-70+ damage in one shot like an archer can do; it doesn't do 35 damage + 10 damage hit lightning + a possible orc brute hit like a melee dexxer can do; and it doesn't do any damage on the run like a dexxer or archer can do.

    To say that the template is very effective offensively is just ignorant of what makes templates effective offensively. What makes a template effective offensively? Here's a check list.

    Does it do a ton of burst damage? Not really, but at least the sustained damage is reliable.
    Is it good at damaging someone while they run? No.
    Is it good at stopping people from healing? No.
    Is it good at stopping people from running? No.


    The only thing it's really good for is getting in a bit of damage when your teammates have done most of the work offensively, which is basically what a parry mage is good for- but at least parry mages have a lot more utility, and better cross heals on mounted targets. The only thing the wrestle parry holy fister is good for, is staying alive while doing a decent amount of reliable damage, and for cross healing teammates when they are on foot.
     
    #568 Revan123, Dec 26, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
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  19. randy

    randy Journeyman

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    People will complain about anything fist damage isn't really an issue imo if you run a group of mages and they all prep fs they can kill someone should we nerf mages even more now? I think the issue really is people need to get better in group fights because a good group no matter what they play will be in sync and still kill you. Your issue isn't with wrestle parry chiv it's you're bad in group fights.

    If Chiv is getting a nerf everything needs to be nerfed. I don't see how a evasion 4/6 chiv player is more balanced than one with wrestling. If you want to get literal with everything Should mages have to equip a spell book to cast spells now as well?
     
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  20. PwnySlaystation

    PwnySlaystation Lore Master
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    The problem with chiv is its the best defensive skill in the game. If you run it with wrestle it should be capped at 2/6 its supposed to be a warrior support skill. How many warriors run wrestling? The ability to do the damage of an ai that cant miss as a spell on a character that can heal faster than any other build, cure lethal poison every try faster than any other build and remove all curses instantly is too powerful combined with being non disarmable. End discussion.

    Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
     
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  21. Bombastic Fail

    Bombastic Fail Certifiable
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    Discussing Balance


    So I posted all these on October 11th..


    Oh look! And here on October 16th...


    Discussing Balance


    People are now "suggesting" ABOUT 80% of the same things I mentioned. Really people? Like I said, people skip any relevant "long" posts because they are so used to people spewing out worthless mumbo jumbo that when an informative post comes along, they ignore it...

    Lets try this again and see who likes them now (2+ months later)





    I am going to repeat again. Everyone just seem to skip pages and writes a sentence or two saying what they do or don't like. If more people would make a rational thought out post like this, @Bleak would have a much easier time sorting through and seeing which things he would like to try and change and whatnot.




    REPEAT:


    There are several things wrong and several ways to fix them, just as there are several reason for why things are how they are. So, while I will try not to repeat most of what people have put already (Which most are correct or true) offer -REALISTIC- solutions that may not take tons of coding.


    Here are some of my suggestions, whether realistic or not.


    Ranged Weapons Nerf


    Ideas:
    Increase SSI Cap (1.50)

    Lessen Damage Inc Cap (This could be global for all weapons, not just ranged)

    Lessen Hit spells % (Could be based off your SSI just like Mana Leech and such)


    Pros:
    Evens out some of the ranged dominance at the moment, thus perhaps varying templates more.

    Cons:
    Hurts PVMer DPS as well
    Makes mages a little more out of balance, also requiring a nerf.


    Pure Mage Nerf

    Ideas:
    Add skills to "Focus Mage" that breaks the SDI change (Alchemy, Poison, etc)

    Lessen SDI increase from Focus

    Make it so only wrestling gets parrying bonus (Or perhaps only a weapon skill) or add other requirements (HCI or a new property)

    *One of my favorites* Make shields disarmable again


    Pros:
    Perhaps diversifies the mage templates more.


    Cons:
    Makes dexxers and archers more dominant than mages once again without other changes


    Global Changes:


    Exceptional item weights for imbuing should be increased:
    With power creep, most of these items are irrelevant except for filler pieces. With legendary artifacts, you might have 1 or 2 imbued pieces (A ring perhaps, or 1 piece of armor) to compliment your suit. That is it. Increase the weights of everything at least by 100 if not more. This should be done ASAP because it hurts nothing at all in game.


    Make PURE SKILL worth more than "Added" skill:
    Set bonuses at points with real skill (100, 110, 120).
    Example: Sure 120 parry is great, but that bonus 10% won't be there with your 100 real skill and +20 on a ring or brace.

    Or simply make more -HARD- caps for things. Just like needing 90 tactics for specials, or 90 skill for masteries.

    Make shields disarmable again:
    This makes dexxers more useful, and parrying nerfed a little

    Let DCI be overcapped again:
    A lot of mage weapon using templates will open back up with this change

    Let specials stay procced even when spells are casted:
    This will also open up several spell casting templates with dexxer variants

    Let dexxers hit from 2 tiles away:
    This one is tricky, because it can change a lot of balance in PVM, but PVP wise, will really make dexxers a little strong. Balance may be needed with specials and this change, however.

    Nerf Alchemy:
    Everyone is using it. Either cap it at 50%, or make it so it doesn't stack with EP and just get the 50% bonus with GM. Every 2 points of alchemy gives you 1% EP.

    Change the double conflag pot. With clever usage of macros, a double conflag is viable. This makes for something a bit game breaking when mixed with 80% ep and multi pot throwers.

    Supernovas should surely be looked at as well. Doing anywhere from 15-35 with 80% EP and a cursed target (Or Omened) this is a lot of damage for an AOE -INSTANT- potion that can never miss. Perhaps a flat damage that isn't based on a resist? Or capped damage it can do (20 damage for instance).

    A timer until the cast like explosion potions perhaps? On both conflags and supernovas.

    Nerf 4/6 Chivalry:
    A touchy subject because not all spells are "Broken". It needs to be looked at extensively. The simple fix is to increase the mana cost of a few spells (The Remove Curse, The Heal, The Cure) and/or for the remove curse, make the spell slower, or not remove ALL the curses. Only a random few.

    You could also (Or instead) add a complementary skill to chivalry. The argument to this is simple... Mage/Eval - Mystic/Focus - Necro/SS. Some may argue to do the same to spellweaving, which is also true though.


    Let true artifacts and items be imbuable:
    There is no reason and no "BALANCE" that should be claimed against this. True artifacts are meant to be the most powerful in the game. Times change, and so does power creep, but come on. It was in the game once. A weight increase should also be implemented. At least up to 700-800 on armor. Weapons may need to be looked at (600 for archer, 650 for 1 handers, 750 for 2 handers perhaps)





    These are just a few SIMPLE changes that could make a huge difference in the gameplay of a lot (PVMers & PVPers alike) of people for the better.

    @Bleak I've started to give up with writing out well thought out processes, because there are generally ignored by the DEVs and pushed aside. I hope with your asking of thoughts from the public, you actually intend to take some of the great ideas presented by people and use them. We look forward to your hard work and implementation of these things. We are very passionate about your product, please show us the same in return.
     
  22. Kiss Of Death

    Kiss Of Death Crazed Zealot
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    Stop asking for more nerfs ( too many changes were alrdy made tbh), let's enjoy the new updates now and hopefully tactics will be gone again from the requirements!!!
     
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  23. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    Who is dying to straight Holy Fist spam? That is like dying to flamestrike spam. Lmao. Everything is fine. Relax.
     
  24. randy

    randy Journeyman

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    Either 4/6 should be allowed or it shouldn't. One template isn't any more ridiculous than the other. Some people use their template of 4/6 to use evasion some use it to use a mare/cu, and some use it to use wrestling. Complaining about one or the other just seems like you have an issue with a certain guild i'd suggest copying the template like you did with their mages.
     
  25. PwnySlaystation

    PwnySlaystation Lore Master
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    Im totally up for making it 2/6. What a wonderful suggestion. Good shout.

    Ps. Ive been playing UO since 1997. If you think ive never played a healing mage before you're deluded. Healing mages were a common template even pre aos. Pretending you're some sort of innovator makes you look even more stupid.

    Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
     
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  26. OREOGL

    OREOGL Crazed Zealot
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    It appears that a lot of people on Atlantic are playing parry fisters.

    Before it didnt matter because 4/6 chiv was a defensive template.

    Now it just looks like a group of noobs spamming holy fist over and over.

    Looks pretty dumb to me.
     
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  27. randy

    randy Journeyman

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    2/6 cap for chiv sounds fine to me. And sure ya did bud!
     
  28. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Folks... there is a lot of good passionate discussion about these various changes, which is great... but please keep the personal swipes and name calling aside.

    The developers have been actively reading these threads so let's make them as constructive as possible.

    This is just a reminder that the Rules of Conduct (Rules of Conduct | Stratics) are still in effect for this thread.
     
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  29. cholupa

    cholupa Adventurer

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    I believe a 40% chance to disarm the shield would suffice.
     
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  30. randy

    randy Journeyman

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    I agree Merlin that was really rude by that pwny guy personally there is nothing wrong with copying someone else's template I applaud him for following that really innovative player who started the trend
     
  31. PwnySlaystation

    PwnySlaystation Lore Master
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    Ironically your new build is one i was playing on Atlantic within a week of Holy Fist coming out... nice copying me.

    Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
     
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  32. Lord Gandalf

    Lord Gandalf Crazed Zealot
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    I change up my mind about being able to perform specials with 0 tactics. Most dexers will invest those 90 skill points in poisoning, nina deathtrikers will have resisting spells, this could end up very bad.

    30-60tactics for primary-secondary abilities is defo the way to go.
     
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  33. Kiss Of Death

    Kiss Of Death Crazed Zealot
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    Awwww Gandalf u hurt my black heart :(, let the pkers make great pvp toons!
     
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  34. PaithanTheElf

    PaithanTheElf Lore Keeper
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    I'd be all for making chiv 2/6 if you have any secondary skills at all. 4/6 chiv is really stupid and I can't believe it is still in this game.

    Also- leet and dj both were the first two I saw playing on that specific temp. =0
     
  35. Kiss Of Death

    Kiss Of Death Crazed Zealot
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    The only stupid thing is to be able to have wrestling + chiv together cuz u cannot get disarmed. The rest is just blah blah talk as usual
     
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  36. PwnySlaystation

    PwnySlaystation Lore Master
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    Leet appeared on it about a week later than me. I have no reason to lie. It was a pretty simple template idea to come up with so its no surprise a few were quick to make but i can assure i was playing the parry wrestle fister within the first week of the mastery going live on Eu and Atl.

    Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk
     
  37. sensu

    sensu Adventurer

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    Oh no, more diversity and more offensive templates what are we going to do!
     
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  38. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    The problem is no one who works on this game knows anything about pvp and most of the players that actually still pvp are the cheats. That's why you get 500 replies to a thread by the same 20 people crying don't nerf my template but nerf the ones I don't like. You cant have an objective player base when its a cheating base. Im sure some trashy player will say cheats nowadays simply level it with the EC blah blah blah. That's totally bogus because im sure the trashy player that cries that its level now was cheating long before the EC ever came in to play. That's why pvp is nearly dead. You cant have balance when there are 3 sets of rules. Those that use the EC which looks and plays like garbage, those that will run any and all programs they can get their hands on, and those that simply want to play the game as intended.
     
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  39. Cutter

    Cutter Visitor
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    This makes sense as the issue seems to be primarily wrestle/parry/fisters, not 4/6 chiv. in and of itself.
     
  40. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    That doesn't sound bad to me. Seems like some fun builds to play

    I would say the deathtriker is far from OP right now
     
    #590 cobb, Dec 27, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2016
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  41. PaithanTheElf

    PaithanTheElf Lore Keeper
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    People who try to defend 4/6 are generally the ones who rely on it. So no surprise here. I play a 4/6er- it is stupid easy.
     
  42. cobb

    cobb Sage

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    That is a surprisingly creative and interesting solution to the wrestle/parry dilemma that exists in this game.
     
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  43. OREOGL

    OREOGL Crazed Zealot
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    Yeah, I'd agree.

    I mean its 50 points for a deathstrike if you run. 70 if they can land an omen which is generally avoidable.

    Even if they had resists it'd only marginally improve their template. Mostly from poison spam and mana vamp, in which case they run away and talk trash that you mana vamped them. They come back and the whole cycle repeats itself.

    That or you just disarm them which evolves into the same scenario.
     
  44. Cutter

    Cutter Visitor
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    Not so much without parry.

    4/6 has been in the game forever now. My 4/6 toon has had the same basic template for upwards of 10 years and never did I hear any complaints.

    It's the holy-fist with wrestle/parry that is the issue here, and that brought this "argument" up.
     
  45. OREOGL

    OREOGL Crazed Zealot
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    From what I saw approximately zero people were running the template without parry.

    A few of them even added in spell weaving for the fairies.

    Looks about as fun as eating a handful of nails.
     
  46. Cutter

    Cutter Visitor
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    Bushido 120.0 120.0
    Ninjitsu 120.0 120.0
    Stealth 120.0 100.0
    Swordsmanship 120.0 100.0
    Hiding 100.0 100.0
    Chivalry 90.0 90.0
    Tactics 90.0 90.0


    Diversity people. Not everyone plays FOTM, so we can't just nerf everything
     
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  47. OREOGL

    OREOGL Crazed Zealot
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    I'm just telling you what I saw. But look at it this way, when the majority of the people are playing a 4/6 parry wrestle fister, you can't ignore it just because you chose not to play it.
     
  48. Kiss Of Death

    Kiss Of Death Crazed Zealot
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    History of UO:

    Back in the day you could have magery and chivalry. So people had parry mages with chiv!

    Solution: they fixed it so if u have above 69.9 magery it lowers your fc to 2!

    Now there is holy fist and there are these toons with 69.9 magery and chiv and wrestle parry .... they do one offensive spell... the solution is simple:

    If you have above 69.9 wrestling u go to 2 fc.

    They will have to fix the toon by putting a weapon skill, so they can get finally disarmed and have a weak point in defense.

    Rest of the talks are just trolls
     
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  49. Cutter

    Cutter Visitor
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    Of course not. That's why Kiss of Death's idea seems to make sense. Make wrestle over 69.9 (or however it works) break chiv. casting similar to how magery does, otherwise you 'punish' every player who uses chiv, non-fisters and others who don't abuse it included.
     
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  50. OREOGL

    OREOGL Crazed Zealot
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    Yeah, I don't think it should be nerfed if it is stand alone either.

    Wrestle requirement seems reasonable.
     
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