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NEWS [UO.Com] Publish 81.0 Comes to TC1

Discussion in 'UHall' started by UO News, Feb 1, 2013.

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  1. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    The difficulty with balancing mage to warrior, is simply where most warriors function on 2 mechanisms, damage AND healing, a mage typically functions on one Damage OR Healing. So comparing single traits will always show one side favoring the other. Currently warriors rely on stamina for swinging, and specials for bonus damage and effects. Healing may also be mana based depending on the template. Mages typically put all their eggs into the mana boat because that covers their offense/defense/healing, warriors have offense/defense and healing separately devided between mana and stam.

    Most warrior combat probably close to 75% special moves, 25% regular swings. So rather than being special, really they are additional requirements which IMO is a problem.
    I guess if swing speed was maybe tied to Dex, specials required stamina, and push through didn't require full stamina that might be closer to a better arrangement along with the revamp. Then they'd of course have to really look at refresh pots, and divine fury much more closely. But changes like that are prolly bigger, riskier and more complaint eliciting than even this 15 page armor revamp stuff.
     
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  2. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    I can also cast Greater Heal/Cleansing Winds or Rising Colossus one after another.

    Following your logic being able to cast Heal over and over is unbalanced, as is the ability to cast rising Colossus.

    Stop mucking up the game with this garbage.

    Keep it simple and let us players enjoy the game.
     
    #702 Madrid, Feb 7, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
  3. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Well said and I agree with most in theory but bottom line is that the proposed revamp will not change the existing poor mechanics so what will be left are the huge majority of changes that quite clearly cripple the warrior

    There are just too many warrior specific proposed nerfs to believe otherwise.
     
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  4. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Madrid
    If you want to argue just for the sake of arguing. PM me I'll entertain you.
    If English is not your first language, PM me, I'll try to explain my logic more clearly.
    (You can't cast greater heal on yourself if you're interrupted, paralyzed, poisoned, or mortaled).
     
    #704 Logrus, Feb 7, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
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  5. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    It is true that mages either heal or do damage. But the balance here is the speed in which they can do so.

    And as others have pointed out specials generally consume more mana along with having a lower regen rate.


    It doesnt seem effective for a warrior to continuously fight with just a regular hit, at maybe 10-15 points per swing (depending on the weapon) and maybe land a couple specials through the whole ordeal.

    That becomes grueling and a grind. Let alone in pvp, ineffective.

    Really, the stam pot delay needs to be lowered by half, or perferrably removed.
     
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  6. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    Lets not also forget that a mage does not get the negative return for spamming any spell. Compared to chaining a few AI's back to back it's far more efficient to spew out a bunch of 5-7 level spells from the same mana pool(assuming similar LMC and Regen numbers and not counting the 100+ med most mages run with).
     
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  7. budman23

    budman23 Journeyman

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    LOL Did he just say that spamming mortal and dp is ok because he has a limited amount of mana?
    Is that really an argument?

    Then he wrote this? LOL whos biased now?
    Tired of reading 52 posts by this guy all saying the same thing.
    Who wants to bet hes never played a mage?
     
    #707 budman23, Feb 7, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
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  8. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    The mage/warrior damage comparison doesn't come into play here.
    Can't really compare damage output like that it just doesnt encapsulate the differences.
    A warrior's potential damage will exceed a mages in terms of sustained, and short term damage output. The offset for warriors is they can miss.
    With a few seconds of prep time a XP/FS combo can deal more damage in an instant than a warrior can, but thats a single burst, 2 AI's match that, or exceed it if a spell proc on the weapon kicks in.

    A mages damage output is limited by cast time, and effect time.

    A mages magic arrow does less damage than a warrior with a plain dagger. The magic arrow however never misses. That same magic arrow does much less damage than say that same dagger proccing hit lightning or fireball. Magic arrow also costs the mage mana and movement.

    Flame Strike Vs Armor Ignore:
    Flame Strike Costs base 40 Mana (24 Max LMC), Armor Ignore 25/50 initial and chained, ( 15/30 Max LMC)
    Armor Ignore, dealing 27-35 damage is pretty close to flame strike of 28-41(NonCursed/Cursed). Flame strike takes 3 seconds to cast/damage 2 seconds to chain it. Armor Ignore can be lowered to 1.25 seconds between chains and can have additional weapon procs.(Increasing damage to 36-44)
    2 AI's cost 45 Mana, 2 FS's cost 48, 3 AI's 75 Mana, 3 FS's 72 Mana.

    Mages and warriors are two different animals. Limiting the argument to one facet of their capabilities is just a waste of time.


    Assuming stamina potions go to the 2/10 Refresh/Total Refresh Timer. How does that affect your template.
    How much stamina is getting refreshed of the Refresh Pot. Are you forced to drink one every 2 seconds?
    Taking SSI out of the equation
    If you look at the Stamina to swing rate comparison, you have to drop below 90 stamina to see a below max swing speed reduction on 2s weapons
    Below 120 stam for 2.25 sec weapons
    Below 150 stam for 2.5 sec weapons
    Etc.

    So really rather than just looking at hey I cant drink a TR pot for 10 seconds, how is it really affecting your gameplay.
    My low stamina dexers rarely drop below 60-70 stamina currently and they use fast weapons so never drop below max swing rate. If they roll out as described with the stamina loss base for leather set to the same as prod, its really not gonna bug my dexers one bit in terms of damage output. They won't be switching to plate, and I won't even have to consider looking at that stuff unless I'm curious what protection it offers.

    The main problem I see is push through, which affects both dexers and mages, and THAT is what would require no delay placed on stam pot usage.
     
    #708 Logrus, Feb 7, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2013
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  9. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Uhhh, what exactly is a "low stamina dexer" and why would you think that your dexer is the model that the changes should be based upon?

    A 10 second cool down on total refresh pots would completely cripple the vast majority of pvp warriors.
    Anyone trying to tell me otherwise is a fool and insulting my intelligence.

    Bottom line is that this armor revamp is nothing more then a thinly disguised GIGANTIC warrior nerf no matter how you slice it.
    It stinks on ice and so far not one dev has even had the decency to admit it.

    You wanna hit ALL warriors with a gigantic nerf stick? That's sucks but at least come out and say it.
     
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  10. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    One serious flaw in your mechanism argument is that all mages also heal with potions and some with stones and potions.
     
  11. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
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    Dexxies are all hot and bothered bc they can't chug 100 refresh pots in a row while getting there 2 second heals/6 armor ignores swinging at 1.25 then forming away in ninja form and chugging/healing with aids while they run away. Gonna miss those days :sad2:
     
  12. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    I wouldn't gloat if I were you. These proposed changes will effect every template. What happens when a dexer/Archer knocks your stamina in the dirt where you cant move while your casting gets interrupted every 1.25 seconds? It works both ways.
     
  13. HP_Zoro_HP

    HP_Zoro_HP Seasoned Veteran
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    "casting gets interrupted every 1.25 seconds"

    didn't they really screw SSI for archers?
     
  14. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    ^^ This.

    When playing a mage I use a 50 EP ring and chug heal pots while casting a spell. Try it, It works. Mages can heal while casting! My Parry mage is unstoppable when 1v1 with a dexter. I can dish out massive amounts of damage and heal at the same time and I never miss like a dexter does
     
  15. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Clueless?

    I can only carry a total of 70 pots which is notmaly split into 15 of each kind and 10 cure. So i dont have a clue where your getting a warrior carring 100 read pots.

    Next up: I cant heal in 2 seconds, Thats a mage your thinking off get your facts right it takes me 4 seconds to heal.

    Onto the 6 Armor ignors. I can only get off 4 Armor ignores before i run out of mana and if i chain them back to back its only 3 due to the double mana nerf for chaining them.

    Clueless! Dont come back untill you learn how to play
     
    #715 Winker, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
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  16. funkymonkey

    funkymonkey Lore Master
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    i think she is being sarcastic.
    Whilst having a dig.
     
    #716 funkymonkey, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  17. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    • Repeating Crossbow, Base damage 11-15 / Weapon Speed 2.75 seconds
    • Magical Shortbow, Base damage 12-16 / Weapon Speed 3 seconds
    • Yumi, Base damage 13-17 / Weapon Speed 3.25 seconds
    • Elven Composite Longbow, Base damage 16-20 / Weapon Speed 4 seconds
    • Bow, Base damage 17-21 / Weapon Speed 4.25 seconds
    • Composite Bow, Base damage 18-22 / Weapon Speed 4.5 seconds
    • Crossbow, Base damage 18-22 / Weapon Speed 4.5 seconds
    • Heavy Crossbow, Base damage 20-24 / Weapon Speed 5 seconds
    The Yumi Goes from a 4.5 Second weapon to a 3.25 second weapon.
    Damage is reduced from 16-20 to 13-17 range.

    1.25 is possible after publish with this weapon at the following rates.

    60 SSI 120 Stamina
    35 SSI 150 Stamina
    20 SSI 180 Stamina

    Magical Shortbow
    1.25 @ 40SSI and 120 Stamina

    Top End for Composites are 1.75 at 55 SSI and 180 Stamina
    Heavy CB is 2.0 as above.
    Bow at 1.5 as above.

    Overall the speed is the same, except for the Yumi. All other bows, except the Heavy have been juiced up in damage.
     
    #717 Lefty, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  18. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    People keep saying that the Japanese team, as a general rule, has better communication than does the main team.

    Following that logic, if the Japanese player base doesn't know yet, they likely will soon.

    I wouldn't worry.

    Either way they really should keep a running tally of the alterations on the main site. For a whole host of reasons.

    -Galen's player
     
  19. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    She wasnt gloating. She was just trolling :)

    The funny part is that she doesnt even pvp. She builds libraries lol.

    Based upon this thread she apparently just has some kinda weird, blind hatred of all things non-mage. I am thinking that maybe long ago she did try to pvp for a couple of minutes and got traumatized by an archer or fencer :(

    Its all good though. The world needs libraries and somebody has to do the dirty work of building them.

    2 second bandage heals. Thats funny stuff
     
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  20. chise2

    chise2 Sage
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    Yeah I hear you I think stamina protection would be useful because of that. But not sure if it is enough on its own to lose med you know what I mean? Not to mention like it has been said before it would still leave most armors basically unused. But that has been gone over a bunch of times already. Personally I am just waiting for some more updates on what fixes are coming. Hopefully this the next patch to test center will have more then just the leather armor fix lol. Also I am hoping today we hear more about part 2 or even maybe what sort of other tweaks and fixes they have planned for part 1. Even if these fixes are still on the drawing board it would be nice to know.
     
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  21. Sir_Bolo

    Sir_Bolo Sage
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    You're looking at it wrong.
    Medable leather doesn't get any Mana Phase at all.
    Only non-medable leather (i.e. studded, bone, hide) gets the Mana Phase bonus.

    Basically you have:

    1) Medable armor: same as now, no mana phase, no extra stamina protection
    2) Non-medable leather: higher chance for mana phase, low extra stamina protection
    3) Non-medable wood/stone: mid chance for mana phase, mid extra stamina protection
    4) Non-medable metal: low chance for mana phase, high extra stamina protection
     
  22. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Thats not a flaw as warriors can also use potions, and stone use shares the potion cooldown.

    I know I'll get flamed heavy for this but here goes anyway.

    Warriors damage output capabilities, at minimum are about 25% more than any caster. With all possible buffs/effects in use that gap at the low end can increase to greater than 100% and on the high end to about 50%
    Comparing minimum weapon damage, to maximum weapon damage, and minimum single spell damage, to max single spell damage.
    (PvP) ( PvM numbers have a few more factors to throw in)
    That is a powerful imbalance.

    However:
    Typically any character in combat has to worry about offense/defense/healing as their primary concerns for skill investment, with additional skills added to augment one or more of those areas.
    A warrior does this with Weapon Skill/Tactics for offense and Defense, and then Chiv or Anat/Healing for the healing requirement.
    A caster does this with Casting Skill/Casting Dependenct( Mage/Eval, Myst/Focus etc) for Offense/Healing and then WeaponSkill/Wrestling for Defense.

    Those provide the base for any template variation. Templates become more cramped by adding skills to enhance those capabilities.
    +Skill items, stretch the innate balance a skill cap and skill total cap provide to the system.Though this is available to both casters and warriors, it is a hurdle to balance.

    This Base capability requirement is broken completely by Mage Weapon. A Mage is able to satisfy Offense/Healing/Defense investing only 2 skills, while warriors still have to invest 3. Even a completely Defensive template, for a mage satisfies the requirement for Healing/Defense using 1 Skill and a Mage weapon, while a completely defensive warrior would need WeaponSkill/Chiv , a 2 skill requirement to satisfy the same capability.
    That is a powerful imbalance.

    These imbalances do not cancel each other out, but rather create situations where there are only a few viable templates of each type, everything else, being more of a novelty build than a competitive alternative.
     
  23. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    And the typical current build of a caster does not have to spend stat points on dex thus giving a greater mana pool to draw from. This also causes a imbalance in the suit build as they typically don't have to allocate points to stam increase, most times the same points would be spend on LRC but one could consider the advantage of using regs vs suit points "wasted".

    A pure faction mage could gain a substantial advantage for giving up the LRC on thier suit for a bag of regs given that if they die 95% of the time they are out of the fight.

    No matter what there are issues that need to be addressed in the game. No one is going to be happy but, IMO, the dexxer class of player is getting the bad end of the stick as it currently goes.
     
  24. CovenantX

    CovenantX Crazed Zealot
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    Not so sure about the Armor-revamp...

    But these are the "Combat Changes" I want to see in my ideal publish. *Hopes it happens*


    Weapon Special Attacks: Can now be toggled while casting spells.

    Weapon Special Attacks: Tactics & Anatomy now count towards the 300.0 Combat Point LMC Bonus.
    Bushido & Ninjitsu No longer count towards the 300.0 Combat Point LMC bonus for special weapon attacks.

    Poisoning Skill: No longer grants temporary immunity to Poison, Instead Poisoning provides a bonus to Orange Petals.
    Increasing the levels of poison the petals can cause the user to become temporarily immune to, up to a maximum of level 5 poison (Deadly).


    Inscription: No longer provides +5% Casting Focus at 100.0. Instead Inscription now Increases
    the Casting Focus Cap from 12% to 15% (+1%/33.0 Inscription Skill) you will need to get +15% Casting focus through your items.
    The SDI bonus provided from Inscription would remain unchanged.

    Focus Specialization: Focus & Spirit Speak skills no longer count against focus specilization.
    Swordsmanship, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Throwing, & Poisoning now count against focus specilization.

    Lumberjacking: 10% proc chance for +70%(100%) damage Increase has been removed,
    Instead Lumberjacking now provides a flat 12.5% Damage Increase for every 25.0 skill investment
    to all two-handed Melee weapons up to 50% damage increase at 100.0 Lumberjacking.

    Divine Fury: Now restores you to full stamina, In addition to its current effects.

    Spells that deal Physical Damage: Are now affected by Reflect Physical Damage Property on Armor.
    These Spells Include: Earth Quake, Bombard, and Painspike.

    Alchemy: No longer provides a passive Enhance potions of 30%. Instead it now increases Enhance potion Cap
    to 80% (players need to get 80% enhance potions on their items) In addition Alchemy also reduces Potion
    Cooldowns by 5% for every (Real Skill) 20.0 skill investment into the Alchemy skill.
    25% Potion cool-down reduction at 100.0.

    • Cure potions: now share a global cool-down of 8 seconds.

    Ranged Weapons: Hit-spells on ranged weapons now act as if they are cast by a mage of 50.0 Evaluating intelligence towards
    Hit-spell Damage. These hit-spells include: Magic Arrow, Fire Ball, Lightening, & Harm. (Reduced from 80.0 evaluating intelligence)
    Velocity remains unaffected by this change.
    Hit-spells on Melee weapons are unaffected by this change.

    Mysticism: Bombard will no longer stun targets with resisting spells equal or greater than the casters focus skill.
     
    #724 CovenantX, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  25. chise2

    chise2 Sage
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    I said this before in another thread but I will say it again. I think part of what needs to be done is making warriors less mana dependant. How they do this I donlt know. Someone suggested maybe timers instead of mana for specials. This may or may not work. They could do what other mmos do and have warriors use power or energy or whatever. But adding a whole new system like that may just complicate an already complicated game more. But anyway I just think that especially if you wanna make nonmed armor more popular a big part of that would be making warriors less mana dependant in the first place.
     
  26. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    The entire basis of your entire warrior/mage mechanics example was that mages are imbalanced or at a disadvantage because they function on one mechanism and have to choose between offense or defense within that mechanism. Which falsely led to you inferring that it is ok that mages are easily able to stack up on mana to the point where it is almost endless yet warriors have to make much harder choices with their equally important stats.

    It sounds nice but unfortunately it just isnt correct as mages can and do heal with potions and stones meaning they are in fact able to use 2 mechanisms. If you need more proof of how ingrained potion healing is look no further then the huge % of mage pvp suits that incorporate 50 enhance potions.
    Its even worse when you consider the fact that mages almsot exclusively cure with potions. Where are they in your one mechanic mage?
    You just cannot deny the fact that potions are a very big part of the mages template. Nothing imbalanced or wrong with that. It just is what it is.

    The fact that warriors can also use potions does not factor at all in your flawed mechanics theory as it still does not change the truth that mages are NOT a one mechanic template. They can basically cast combos while chugging heals to restore health and chugging cures to completely negate an entire dp warriors template.
     
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  27. Stickypaws

    Stickypaws Journeyman

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    When is part 2 of this publish hitting TC? Tinker Dammit! ^^
     
  28. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    - "Warriors damage output capabilities, at minimum are about 25% more than any caster. With all possible buffs/effects in use that gap at the low end can increase to greater than 100% and on the high end to about 50%
    Comparing minimum weapon damage, to maximum weapon damage, and minimum single spell damage, to max single spell damage.
    (PvP) ( PvM numbers have a few more factors to throw in)
    That is a powerful imbalance" -

    This is simply not true.

    You cannot begin to compare damage output until you factor everything else into the equation.

    The 2 biggest factors being that weapons quite often whiff and can be parried. Almost as important is the fact that all warriors other then archers and throwers are at a huge ranged attack disadvantage.

    I have 0 sympathy for any non parry mage that complains about damage or warriors in general.
    The mage made the decision to leave parry off his template yet then has issue with taking weapon damage? That is laughable considering the fact that parry almost completely negates all warrior templates.

    And please spare me the 'template diversity' line of garbage.

    Dont beg the devs to nerf an entire class because you want the luxury of being able to play one template at maximum effectiveness agaist ALL other templates.

    I want the luxury of playing my warrior without resist but it cant happen because even with a trapped box I am crippled by 2 overpowered low level spells: Curse & Mana Vamp.

    Warriors are forced into cramped templates because they have to have resisting spells while casters have no equal issues for no other reason then they carry the biggest imbalance ever to be introduced into UO: the sc mage weapon.
     
  29. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Goldberg
    1. Did you actually read what I posted?
    You do realize that aside from warrior damage and pots you are agreeing with what I posted right.
    Mana never even entered any part of my post.
     
  30. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Furthermore if you can get a free skill like that mage weapon is providing, it means that casters can pick up additional skills without penalty, which is why you have a bunch of mystic or necro mages, one or two pure mages and pretty much no pure necro or pure mystics. Caster vs Caster or Caster vs Warrior, any caster not taking advantage of that imbalanced mage weapon mechanic is simply outclassing the pure class. IE limiting the number of effective templates.

    If Every warrior after already investing An extra skill that mages using mage weapons don't have to spend, ALSO has to stick resist on their character, thats an additional requirement which does the same as above and limits diversity for warrior templates.
     
    #730 Logrus, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
  31. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    I read it thoroughly :)

    Part of my reply was based upon this statement of yours - "Mages typically put all their eggs into the mana boat"

    I realize that you also recognize how imbalanced sc mage weps are. My reference to them was not a rebuttal. Simply a statement that they are the main reason mages are able to circumvent having to correctly build at least one weapon defense skill into their template.

    But either way we unfortunately are nowhere near in agreement as the 'damage' you referenced is the single biggest factor in any scenario. As pvp stands right now (aside from the best throwers) damage is quite equal between the 2 classes. In amounts and damage over time.

    The proposed changes will completely skew the current balance towards the mage.
     
  32. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah, you do not swing at full speed below 90 stam even with a 2 second weapon, if you are using a 2 second weapon. Congrats to proving nothing to throwers, archers, and every other warrior temp that doesn't use a 2 second weapon. Any weapon above 2.5 seconds loses max speed below 120 stam, and this is only 30 stam loss if you chugged and were at 150 to start.

    even exp has a 2 second delay with 51-56 pts of damage at 20 mana.
    FS at 64-69 pts of damage at a 2 second delay cost 40 mana without lmc.


    Armor Ignore is now what 30 mana capped at 35 damage?

    Assuming we are discussing base damage with no contributing figures, no resists or ssi. A magic arrow has a delay of .5 seconds with damage 14-18 fire dmg at 4 mana.

    A dagger? 10-12 dmg at 2 seconds, even at best 1.25 seconds if they hit.
    As far as chaining specials, if I recall the mana cost increases on a timer right after the first one. So there is a delay unless you dont mind doubling the mana cost. I dont recall what that timer is until it drops to normal mana consumption.


    But this really isn't meant to be an argument against magery, but a comparison to damage output if you lower the stam rate. Your swing speed and dmg output drop below 90 stam w/ a 2 second weapon.


    I get the point you are trying to make, but after you factor in resists, RNG, and mana costs for warrior, even if you do lose a little time between refreshes, the damage output still tends to be a big difference.
     
  33. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Well since we are operating out of the box with the Mage/Dexer debates, I thought I would put in a few words on what I don't like about the current mechanics.

    1. Tactics Requirement (Pub 46) for Special Moves. This was just put into place under Guildmules suggestion to standardize Templates in a D&D fashion. Special Moves were never a balance issue. This killed tons of template types and made it harder for warriors and mages to cram skill points.
    2. Toggle Special Move/ Pre Cast - Was never a balance issue. It was fun on both parts. Being disarmed by a mage, be it wrestle or by wep was no big deal. Precast, well people were used to it on the field.
    3. Mana double cost Penalty within 3 seconds: This was suppose to have been a temporary measure by Mr. Tact at the time where the issue was mana leech properties and pre damage caps. It was to curb the damage output till more permanent solutions were made.
    4. 80 Dex requirement for Parry. Big whoop. Is a mage with parry that big of a threat?
    5. Death Strike - To much dang skill investment to optimize the 50 hp damage that leaves big holes in a template such as no resist and low damage output. Nearly making the ninjitsu skill worthless.
    Since I am in a bit of a ranting mood, I have to say the attitude towards dexers is like a repeat of the movie District 9. Here in this scenario Dexers are second class citizens who are limited to a ration of mana.
     
  34. Otis Leroy Funk

    Otis Leroy Funk Journeyman

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    All of these ideas and discussions yet we still have no statement from the devs on what they wish to do with this patch. We are still assuming they want to nerf dexxers, we are still ASSUMING they want to make all armor types useful. COME ON DEVS COMMUNICATE.!!
     
  35. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Surely they should communicate with us more-often and more-clearly.

    However in this case they did tell us that they've removed the most-onerous portion of the Publish, which is the catastrophic stamina damage. From those who've tested it, stamina damage appears to be back down to present Production Shard levels.

    By definition heavy armor will be more-useful than it is now because it will mitigate some, and perhaps all, of the stamina damage. Indeed, if the potion nerf and Divine Fury nerf also go through, heavy armor may well become even more useful than if they just made it mitigate stamina damage and left it at that.

    Even as I was discouraged by the nature of the proposed changes I am encouraged by the way they listened on the biggest issue.

    If they listenend on that surely they are listening on the rest as well. Whether or not they will agree, of course, remains an open question.

    -Galen's player
     
  36. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    A dagger base damage is 10-11. With 100 Strength and 100 Tactics it will do 20-22. With 120 Strength/Tactics/Anat and 100 damage it will do 38-42 damage. If you factor in a hit spell you will get a base bonus of 17-30ish depending on which spell it is. Using Various abilities and effects in game you can increase that base damage before factoring procs to 64-71
    Damage output alone with no procs no effects on an equally skilled opponent assuming 50% hit rate thats a 17-21 Damage rate.
    With 90 Stamina you swing at cap of 1.25s. This is pre SSI. (With SSi you can achieve max ssi with lower stamina, or use a slower weapon for more damage and still max swing rate)

    Magic arrow can be cast in .5 seconds, The damage has a 1 sec delay. If you cast it again before that damage is hit, then it is negated. So your perfect rate of damage with magic arrow would be at just about 1.25-1.5 seconds per magic arrow dealing 16-18 damage at a 4 mana cost. With all passive effects an buffs you can probably get magic arrow damage up to 22-25

    Comparing damage out put to something higher, say ebolt or flame strike. You can hit en ebolt every 1.75 seconds dealing 51-56 points of damage. ( Max Buffed about 77-86) 12 Mana cost
    A War fork at 90 stamina will give you the same rate of 1.75
    @ 100 str/tactics it will only give you 20-26 Damage. @ 120 Str/Tac/Anat/100 Di it will give you 42-50 (Max Buffed PreProc about 71-80)
    Spell Proc may add between 17-30 .
    0 Mana cost.

    (I did a comparison with AI and flame strike either earlier in this thread or another thread as well so not gonna revisit that)

    There are of course factors limiting damage output from both classes. Warriors require stamina or item properties to keep their swing rates up, as well as their damage is completely reliant on them hitting the target. Worst case scenario, a Warrior 120 skill/Max HCI going up against an opponent with 120 skill and Max DCI AND Parry has a 30% hit rate.


    A mages is pretty much guaranteed to deal damage as long as they are able to cast without interruption. The limiting factor primarily being interruption.


    A warrior with low stam, low mana, low item mods is going to have crappy damage output.
    A warrior with high stam , high mana, and high item mods, is going to have much better damage output than a mage.

    A mage with minimal gear is not going to suffer as much on the low end as a warrior.
    A mage with max everything is is going to have significantly less potential damage as a warrior on the high end.

    Thats my point regarding damage. On the warrior side it skews from really low to really high depending on the state, in the case of a mage the best hope is to break even on the slower end, matching slower weapons with ebolts and flame strikes, on the lower its just no real competition.

    But anyway thats kind of tangental, the basic point is warriors have more damage potential, casters get a free skill.
    Damage potential is more of a tweak, the free skill is just broken.

    But thats an overall balance thing.

    Nobody as yet said how often on prod they use use stam pots, how many they carry etc.

    I've never found myself chugging TRs as often as once every 10 seconds unless I was pushing through somewhere. So speaking for my warriors alone, a 10 sec cooldown on TRs is probably going to go unnoticed.

    Speaking for both my warriors and casters a 10 sec cooldown will be a HUGE problem if pushthrough still requires full stamina.
     
    #736 Logrus, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
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  37. swroberts

    swroberts Journeyman
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    You won't be playing a Sampire with these changes...The Staminia loss with the diminishing returns on Stamina Leech, really screw the template.
     
  38. swroberts

    swroberts Journeyman
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    There are some interesting posts on the TC1 boards about testing
     
  39. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    This is the worst part of the whole issue. It's now a full week since the release of the pub notes and Logrus has become the target of frustration for bothering to defend or enhance the discussion due only to his former position.

    Where on earth is Messana, Bleak or who ever. I guess I could log onto twitter and ask Jeff for wtf-ever that's worth :(

    Gosh darn train wreck.
     
  40. NuSair

    NuSair Crazed Zealot
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    Maybe, maybe not. I still think it's pretty viable- they seem intent on screwing the sampire thinking it's a problem and are going to mess with everything else except for the engine of the problem- vampiric embrace. I swear this is like watching Wizards of the Coast ban cards from the Tolerian Academy deck or the Pox deck... keep refusing to address the engine of what is the problem and messing with everything else.

    Not that I think sampires are a problem, I think in the current game state they are necessary. Remove the sampire and you'll go back to greater dragons tanking everything.
     
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  41. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I watch the boards through this link: http://stratics.com/community/index.php?recent-activity/

    At the right hand side it shows you who's online. If it's someone you 'follow' their avatar shows at the top. If you click on that avatar you can see what thread the person is reading.

    If you did the same you'd know that Bleak, Kyronix and Phoenix have been reading this thread daily.
    This link http://stratics.com/community/forums/uo-developer-feed.551/ shows you how much they've posted this week.

    They've actually been around more than I have this week. I had 2 days off while my home was re-wired.
     
  42. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    I really wish one of these developers would try TALKING TO US ABOUT SOMETHING BEFORE CODING IT. You know, come out and go "Okay you guys hate A, but what about B maybe?" and take in what we say. Not just retreat to the Bunker of Secrecy to cook up something else in isolation, then dump it on Test Center.

    There's no way this whole debacle is going to come out as a net positive to the game. It's all damage control. Even if we talk them out of wrecking the game outright, we're going to be left with 50% of armor and 90% of weapons being unusable garbage. Ooh yeah let me comission a new war mace, it's as slow as ever but now it has some stupid ML special that hurts me when I use it. Oh and two more points of base damage, whee.
     
    #742 KLOMP, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
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  43. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Which of us?
     
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  44. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Oho you clever dog, you've pointed out that players sometimes disagree. Clearly I am asking the impossible of the developers when I say they should listen to us. Derpy derp derp.

    Except no. It doesn't cost them anything extra to post their ideas and take feedback BEFORE actually coding them. If anything it costs them less. Someone over there had to code those stamina damage changes and then revert them when they were universally hated. If they had just posted the idea first, they wouldn't have needed to code them at all.

    My fear is that after the second or third iteration they're just going to go "screw it" and run with whatever they have because they can't afford to work on this one thing forever. When really they didn't need to work on it at all until a few weeks of forum chatting had given them an idea of what they should be doing.
     
  45. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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