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Discussion in 'UHall' started by Pinco, Jun 22, 2013.
For the ones who don't read the EC forum, I'm reporting the same message here:
Link appears to not work on the site and I've not been able to register there to let you know.
Hey Messana... one of the only hopes the EC ever has of becoming a main stream client is heading out the door. Perhaps its time for EA to put him on some sort of contractor status (Like the EM program) and keep that UI going.
the link is readable for everyone, I've just tried with the incognito browser and not logged in...
Hate to hear this, hope the future brings better tidings.
Completely Agree...Pinco's made the EC and kept a lot of players from leaving due to frustration with 2 antiquated GUI's....Time to give him a job or buy him out.
Cool, blackmail to hold the users of the mod hostage. "Pay up or it's over!"
it's not a blackmail, it's the truth... unfortunately this latest years I mostly paid the work with my money, now without a job it's impossible to do that... My compassion is limited, I'm not gonna stay without food to make someone else enjoy a game :|
Aran, developers shouldn't be expected to give things for free. "From now on I'll be unable to spend money in a game I don't play to keep the UI updated." (emphasis added)
I know an Android developer who's been out of work for a while, and he makes a few bucks here and there with donations for his JB ROMs. He and Pinco aren't exactly raking it in, I'm sure.
Edit: what Pinco said.
I commiserate with Pinco. But this blackmail style is not your best decison. It is sad that you are unemployed now, but saying only if you are speding money you are supporting your UI feels like selling your UI without any contract or gurantee for the customers. Anyway if you are no longer playing UO, you should hear your heart and leave it.
Lucitus, it's not really your place to make that suggestion to a developer who obviously loves what he does (and he doesn't NEED to play the game to love developing, knucklehead). Unfortunately, passion won't keep food on his table or a roof over his head. When I see a comment like yours aimed at a developer who has been not only working for free, but paying out of their own pockets for your benefit, I just want to ask the universe what compelled it to create such an irrational life form.
I don't get the bad talking and talk of hostage holding and such. Pinco made the mod, he improved the client, and he played it. Now he is done playing, so he's gonna stop supporting the game he no longer plays. Sounds quite reasonable to me. Instead, I wonder why all yall upset aabout Pinco leaving, are talking bad about it, when you should be demanding that the devs, you know, the ones that get PAID to work on the game, do their jobs instead of leaving it up to the paying customers to do.
With the time spent on the mostly underused and un-needed refinement programming, and a few other things we wont talk about, the mods coulda been company done and hosted on EA webspace.
So quit downing Pinco, and quit clapping and cheering EA EA EA, and put the blame for our situation where it belongs.
Thank you for all you have done Pinco, good luck and may God bless! Maybe all our paths will cross again someday. *waves*
That's what it is, I'm not forcing anyone to donate.... and I'm not quitting because of the people who donate and care about the UI, I'm not like EA who takes the money and forget where it came from :|
Iam with you only thing, i dont like is the counter of month. It is okay getting donations for the hard work you do, but you think if you get money for 20 month you really can support it for so long.
Instead of Warning "I need your help" or such thing would be a better title, but i wish you all luck to get a new job in the near future!
He isn't stopping support for something he no longer plays. However, without an income, he can no longer afford to support a game he no longer (and presumably hasn't in some time now) plays.
If you follow the link you will see this:
This morning after this thread was originally posted in UHall, there was only 2 months lifespan, it is now up to 8 months .
I must also say that at $20/month donation (total from everyone not from each person) Pinco is still losing money to keep the UI updated. I run forums using the same software as Pinco, and the licensing costs of the software, plus hosting etc etc easily comes out to minimum 20$ a month alone.
I will be looking at my finances after the first (am in the middle of a RL move at the moment so money is tied up) and will definitely make a donation of some kind to keep this treasure running longer.
This is not blackmail. Blackmail is an act, often a crime, involving unjustified threats to make a gain or cause loss to another unless a demand is met. Or as stated in the Merriam Webster dictionary: Blackmail is extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution or a payment that is extorted. All Pinco has done is say, "Hey, I cannot afford to upkeep the costs anymore, I need help in that area so I can keep this thing going for you guys." There is nothing wrong with that at all, and I am glad Pinco came to the masses instead of doing what others may have done and just let it slip quietly into disrepair. As far as a guarantee for the customers, it was quite plainly stated, as long as there is x amount of money in donation account, he can keep the UI running. A guarantee is only as good as the person giving it so why do you need a written guarantee for a donation? Pinco has been an upstanding member of the UO community and can be taken at his word IMHO. Besides, don't you play UO? There is no guarantee that UO will be here tomorrow. You could pay for six months in advance today, EA pull the plug tomorrow, and your out that 59.99.
This has been suggested many many times, or some form of it, and if Pinco wanted to, EA/Mythic whoever needs to come to some sort of agreement. I think that what makes Pinco's UI so great is that HE has the freedom to do things without the bureaucratic crap that would come from being an employee of EA (as of right now there are only certian things Pinco is not allowed to do under any circumstances, and that is expected obviously to keep the UI EA/UO approved etc etc0. So I'm sure some sort of contracting or licensing/bundling deal would be better fitted so that Pinco could continue to operate the way he does now.
All in all, Thank you Pinco for your hard work and dedication to Ultima Online, and most of all to us players that use and depend on your UI day in and day out to conquer the lands of Sosaria.
Pretty much what Cdavbar said.
I will too be chipping in as soon as my next paycheck hits.
Hosting costs money, the subscription costs money and writing code takes time, which in turn, also costs money.
I am pretty good with going with a donation drive for Pinco's work.
And best of luck for him to find a new job soon.
Well, ****. Pinco's UI is the only thing that makes the EC even tolerable for me. I just went from Pinco's UI 5.3 to 5.8 the other day, and i'm loving how insanely easy it is to loot all the corpses for Essences at a mini-champ spawn. Ctrl+Shift, click the names, right click the Essences. I can't imagine trying to play the EC without Pinco's, EA really should pay him for making their client playable.
Sad to hear "blackmail" thrown around..you people are amazing! He's simply stated he cannot afford to keep a MOD updated and running without funds..if I were him and after reading some of these comments I would just take the patcher offline for public use and say screw you!
GL pinco on the job search bud..hope all works out
Pinco I use your ui and I love it, I will donate when I can.
Please don't listen to this jack off
How soon we forget the last few years where the country was on the brink of financial disaster...
And we still are in some deep ruts in many areas with jobs and work.
Many of our fellow players lost everything including their in game homes along with their Real Life ones...
Jobs are downsizing to the point of being anorexic, Many company's just decided to up and end it all mid stream.
My son worked for a one such company where he got them back making money only to have the owner decide it was time to quit and he closed the doors in under 2 days with only a few hours notice to anyone... Just goes to show you even in the entertainment industry belts are on the same bottom line as the rest.
It's not fun to think of where your going to get the money to pay bills that come every month, not to mention food, gas, and house payment... the little things get cut out when you need to tighten your belt.
I for one commend Pinco for his hard work and the great ui he made for all of you in EC.
Give the man the credit he is due..
If you can help out keeping it going fine.. I am quite sure he thanks you.
As for those of you who feel other wise...
He didn't say open your wallet and give me money... what I read was he has to cut corners to live due to job loss, he cant foot the bill, help if you can to keep your ui.
Would you rather he not tell you he needs help.. and wake up one morning and find the ui gone perma?
Donation sent thanks pinco good luck
Coming from a Modder's Perspective:
First off, if you have Pinco's installed right now, even if Pinco pulls the website and hosting down due to financial issues, unless they significantly change the EC's UI, update database numbers, or otherwise make the current UI setup incompatible with the client, Pinco's UI will continue to work. The only probalems that will occur is that any outstanding bugs in the UI will not be fixed, the UI as stated is susceptible to being "broken" via client patch, or tooltip info may go out of date if they change mods around (such as they did for item resists recently). So let's not panic completely about the loss of the UI itself.
Next, if you have NOT tried modding a UI, then you do not understand the amount of time it can take to create one. My own work was limited to the texture and XML files that displayed them. Even this took weeks' worth of time to replace each texture to one I wanted to use, fine tune each texture to fit in the space allotted, work with the code to place each item accordingly for the best look (the Third Dawn container textures were probably the single most difficult), recode areas as necessary to work properly, and then fine tune literally pixel by pixel to clean up anything that looked a bit off. Then in many cases, especially in the early days of Pinco's I'd find myself back at square one having to rework everything to work with the changes made to the base UI package. Pinco has a lot more work to do considering the LUA work to create the advanced scripts used in the UI and then adding in entirely new portions including new textures and the calls to them. This is a LOT of work and time that most UI modders do entirely unpaid expect by possible donations. Basically, it can be considered that a modder in the middle of a project will come home from their real job only to start and work just as many hours on the modding "job". So it's understandable why Pinco would rely on the donations even if it's only to keep hosting up to date for the site that hosts the UI and addons.
Finally, I'm not sure if any modders are really left (unless they simply do not post here or advertise their work in any way) that have a positive view on the future of the game. Even after GrimmOmen left, there have been more rounds of layoffs and the idea of an item revamp has made things even more complex when most players wanted things to be simplified. Quite frankly, I'm not seeing anything to be positive about in regards to the game. Not that I don't like UO, I wouldn't still be messing around in it after 15.5 years if I didn't, but right now, regardless of how upbeat the devs try to be, I'm not certain they have the resources to pull off the needed updates to keep the game in the spotlight. I'm more and more inclined to agree with the people saying the game is in a "zombie mode". Because of this, I've been less encouraged to join in the "ideas" threads... not that the ideas aren't there, there are simply too many things that need to be done FIRST that I'm not sure will ever get done anymore.
It's been the lack of quality, needed updates to the EC itself to finish up the product that has ended up with UO losing the modding community through attrition. If someone, especially those badmouthing Pinco wants to pick up the modding torch, then put up or shut up. I used to have the "Why doesn't someone put out mods for KR/EC like they did for WoW so I can just download them?" mindset until I actually decided that I should be one of them to provide them. So for those attacking Pinco's decision... how much time have YOU spent providing the community with improvements to the game? I see ONE name up there that can answer that they have.
Pinco, whatever your final decision... thanks for your UI, and thanks for allowing me to add my own texture packs to it.
I'm shocked, depressed, and dismayed that folks would call this blackmail.
Dermott of LS I read recently in the financial page that of the 4 major company's they looked at for growth potential in stock market value EA was the first they chose to dissect into bits and pieces... EA is widely known for its ways of dealing with its offerings once past their official release. (As little as they can get away with)
When the stock market knows how you deal with your product(s) to that extent its very telling of how you do business with others and what to expect...
Once produced they want only the sales report, not the health of the item... and how to make it better for growth.
This said its no wonder we have been hung out to dry on a thin cloths line to ether hang in or choke on it.
Oh this is not the only one they cut up.. but it was sad to read they meaning the market was writing the obit for WoW... Activision was one of the other company's they were slicing up as Vinvidi was wanting to sell 60% of their holdings in it. As in their words WoW was loosing millions of players to f2p... and cause it was at 8.2 million players world wide it was soon to die out and the closest replacement was no due till 2016... now that is freeking disturbing as we could use their left overs of players ... geesh!
Personally, UO for me, unless something big happens between now and the end of the year (i.e. High Res art, vendor search, and EC long-standing bug fixes), is in "pass the time" mode until Shroud of the Avatar comes out. Lord British going back to an indie company and hiring on some old school Origin people as well as a couple of names known to old-school UO people as well (Lum the Mad is now a dev on SotA) and a fairly open devving process (the art lead is doing a weekly video showing him creating art assets for the world and this past week, he showed the first reviewed piece of crowd-sourced artwork for the game). I put in during the Kickstarter and upgraded up to the $150 level which gets me the 5 main episodes of the game and a SLEW of extras including the cloth map. I even snagged an old U3 Exodus cloth map off ebay to go along side the SotA map (since the initial SotA map is basically the U3 map).
But it remains to be seen. If SotA gives me a better playing experience than UO, then I might end up jumping ship after so long. If UO can show me that the bad news surrounding it via EA is not an issue in terms of getting the needed updates and SotA doesn't pan out, then I'll stay here. The competition is on in my view, and even though SotA right now is very much Vapourware, what I've seen from the SotA team has given me MUCH more confidence than what I've seen from the UO team (whether it's their own mismanagement or EA's).
If anything "kills" UO right now, to me it's the mismanagement of every new client, the mismanagement from EA, and now the potential of Lord British not being hog-tied by a corporate structure.
It is not "mismanagement" that hampers the game. It is the players.
We can all still play. Anything Pinco did can be done again.
EA needs to put Pinco quietly into "free play" mode. This way no precedent is set. EA certainly has benefits accruing from Pinco's work. I assume that free play will not generate any employer/employee relationships. My family has a free lifetime pass to disneyland, and I know friends who have lifetime stage passes at certain venues. Although a case could be made that these are "pay", I really doubt they will become and issue. In the meantime, my donation is in the mail as a gift of gratitude for the work already done.
Your funny Kelmo, your very funny.
EXACTLY! Uriah is spot on... and thanks, Pinco for all your effort over these years. May your next job be fun and financially rewarding.
Some people's sense of entitlement is hilarious, but depressing in equal measure.
Many people would only consider the 2D client to be playable with UOAssist which explicitly charges for its use as a commercial product. Pinco has been developing his UI for a long time and supporting EC players for free, many of whom consider his work to be integral to their EC play experience. Yet when he needs support and requests donations, people are shouting blackmail? Jeez, get a grip honestly.
As Pinco has supported us, it is now time for us to support him in his time of need if we wish to continue enjoying his work.
Grazie mille e buona fortuna per il futuro.
Really? I don't know about you but I don't know thing one about Modding the UI and it's not likely that I ever would... Pinco is a wiz at it and certainly has wowed more than just me. Those who came before played at it but didn't really Mod much of anything other than a few "looks"... So I'd like to call BS.
Sure it could be done but is anyone left playing UO that actually could or would???? I have my doubts.
As for what you said Dermott about Garriott... I wouldn't give that game 10 months.... thing about Garriott is he wants to make a buck... and he likely already has made back 100's of thousands in milking everyone for the houses and such... Soon as he milks everyone for all they are worth he'll either sell out again or shut it down... I honestly don't think what he's doing will be anything close to UO.
I've looked at other games... I've prayed for another game... but honestly it don't look good at all for much of anything... I have yet to find anything that might replace what I've had here these last 13 years.... and I seriously doubt there will be anything. If UO closed I suppose I'd have to find my way to a free shard and hope it didn't die out as well... either that or just give up gaming all together.... go back to playing Sims... by myself.
Gonna have to disagree with ya there buddy. Unless you personally know how.
Not a lot of people have the time, knowledge, or desire to do what Pinco did.
Speaking to Kelmo as a person and far from the "mod" he is:
This is the most absurd posting I have read to date on this forum. I challenge you to do slightly the same thing that this person did and do it for free. Tugsoft managed to get an amazing deal with Origin at the time and raked in hundreds of thousands if not well over a million(simple math would say that 10K accounts at $10 bucks is a cool $100K for one program with limited updates since 1998?).
I am disgusted with this response on a personal level but to have this "mod"(a position which I relate to almost a representative of EA/Mythic and certainly Stratics) state, in not so direct terms, that the contribution that Pinco gave to this game is worthless and could be redone with little effort is comical and foolish at best.
Give your head a check man for goodness sake, you have a job to sell this website and this game. Get a clue.
Good luck Pinco, I only wish you the best.
Delete this posting, send me a PM or ban my account but get a clue. Pinco added years to this game and gave us more than the last 5 pubs with no thanks wanted.
boy do I feel like a moron or just a big ol' fly in the soup... I thought Pinco was a paid employee already (LOL!)
UO assist was created by Tugsoft which was purchased by EA.
EA makes all the money off UO assist now.
This pincos crap no one makes money off of.
The people who feel "everyone" is using it should go shopping in Luna, it is very obvious which client is being used more often.
As a Dev directly said "making the EC was a mistake"
Anyone that feels differently drains resources off a already struggling game.
What an informative post. Not only does it illustrate that you have absolutely no clue how the EC works, it also shows everyone reading that you're clearly a waste of time to listen to. Bravo sir, you fit in nicely here.
I have never heard nor seen any suggestion that EA purchased Tugsoft or makes any money from Assist. Indeed the only times I've seen them so much as mention Assist is in the context of "don't whine to us if it doesn't work, because we don't own it."
Considering Lucitus is actually an EC UI developer, I would say he his opinion holds quite a bit more value than someone who's just a consumer. Like yourself for example. Lucitus actually designed a very lightweight and solid UI for the EC that I use to this day and love. Might want to get your information in line before you go throwing stones.
When did that news release come out?
I do not wish to take away from a very important thread, but I must ask what the hell are you talking about? Did you not know you can use CC containers in the EC to set-up vendors? And that vendor owners do that to be able to cater to the CC users? I run a vendor shop, and if you go into it you can see everything clearly and organized in the CC, as well as the EC, because of vendors you come to the conclusion I probably play the CC? Know this, I play the EC, with Pinco's.
As far as not making money off of Pinco's, EA does make money from it from the many continued subscriptions because of what Pinco's brings to the game. As far as Pinco himself, I'm not to sure of the agreement with him and EA, I know he has talked with them to ensure certain features conform with UO/EA policies etc. etc., but I'm fairly certain he cannot outright charge a fee for it without a licensing agreement with EA due to copyright laws. However donations that strictly keep the program running, updating etc., are a different beast, and at $20 cost a month, like I stated before Pinco is still losing money, not profiting.
I am saddened that people have taken this thread to the extremes of bashing one client over another. Or one program such as UOAsssist and comparing it to Pincos. This thread was merely a notice saying, hey I will keep updating it, but i need some help with the maintenance costs of doing so!
We don't care if you hate the EC, we don't care if you hate Pinco's UI and think its "crap". There are many of us that use it daily and would prefer to never go back to the CC with or without UOAssist.
Kelmo, I am very appalled that a moderator of this site would brush off Pinco so easily, with everything he has done for the players of the Enhanced Client, the UO Community as a whole, and the Stratics Community. You should be ashamed of yourself and make a public apology. Moderators of boards should hold themselves to a higher standard than the common registered members that more times than not, speak their minds without thinking.
In a sense you are right, could anything Pinco has done be done again? Sure it could, in a few years, maybe. By then those of us who have swore off the Classic Client would have left by then, due to the fact something would be done in a publish or bug fix that would cause Pinco's to ultimately break if it wasn't continually updated. Also let it be known, if someone else developed somethign else as in-depth as Pinco, it wouldn't really be the same would it? It would be their own beast, with their own likes etc. Not every feature in Pinco's is used by everyone for sure, but Pinco has done a damn good job of eliciting feedback etc from the users for what stuff is put into the client.
Thank you for your hard work Pinco! Good luck in your search for new employment, and like I said earlier, After the first of the month, expect a donation to help with the costs of maintaining the UI. Your efforts, hard work, and support of this Game, Forums, and the Enhanced Client will forever be cherished by those of us that live and die in the lands of Sosaria with your UI at our fingertips.
Please tell me that when you pull this crap, you're doing it on purpose for a chuckle. That would make a helluva lot more sense.
I don't say this very often and I don't really like to, but Kelmo's right. Nothing Pinco did, or any other programmer did, is "unique." Sure, they may arrive at the same program via different means, write it in a different language where appropriate, but in the end it's reproduce-able.
Reproducible yes, but not without countless hours. I don't think it's out of line for him to ask for donations particularly when he's out of a job and has no way to pay for the game.
Sorry to hear that, Pinco. I hope things improve for you. With hour cuts at my own job, I can barely afford to play UO myself, or I would send some cash your way.
I've used the EC for years, but I've never used Pinco's. Didn't really need it, though I did try to use it once for those fancy skins, never got it to work though. ( wasn't important enough to me to wade through help forums to fix it )
I do sympathize with the loss of employment that anyone goes through. I wish everyone in this situation luck and hope for a recovering economy.
It was never my intention to offend anyone. I am not saying that I have the skills to replicate what Pinco has done. I do play the enhanced client without using any mods at all.
I applaud what Pinco has accomplished. I just find it bloated and cumbersome. That is my opinion and does not reflect the "official" opinion of Stratics or any other member of Stratics staff, I know many folks that use this particular mod and find it very useful. I appreciate all the time and effort Pinco put into his product. If any of you feel the desire to donate to keep the project alive, that is your option.
It is my hope the the UO team will continue to work on the Enhanced Client to make it more enjoyable for everyone.
I will re emphasize one last time and then leave this conversation. I stand by my earlier statement and please know this is merely my opinion.
This thread is too convoluted to weed effectively. Too many quotes.
Pinco, I'm sorry for your current unfortunate situation and hope further employment is quickly found
budman23 Your information, to the best of my knowledge, is totally inaccurate and I would ask you to cease making such misleading posts.
@ various others. I do not consider Pinco's appeal for help in maintaining his UI for the benefit of all can in any way be classed as 'blackmail'. I would ask that this opinion not be elaborated on further.
IF this were true, then I feel confident that EA-Legal would have been all over the Tugsoft Website and you would see an EA-Logo, Copyright (insert Year) EA, etc all over the site. Strangely there is nothing there at all that indicates any relationship with EA.
The only copyright info shows that it is owned by Tugsoft and a Search of Tugsoft "Legal Entities" shows that it is owned by an individual. I think it is safe to conclude that EA does not own Tugsoft nor does it profit from it.
Sorry to hear that, Pinco. I hope you're able to find new, better opportunities soon.